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CHI-WEB  December 2001, Week 1

CHI-WEB December 2001, Week 1

Subject:

Challenges of Unix - Summary

From:

Kayla Block <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Kayla Block <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:49:06 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (214 lines)

I posted the following questions to the list about users with Unix
environments:

Can you alter the way widgets are drawn using stylesheets? Do the user
preferences (Motif) override the stylesheet? The default windowing system
(KDE on my box) settings make for hideous looking web pages, but I'm
realizing that I have no clue what user settings might already be. I guess
this gets at the heart of HTML as design versus HTML as just a markup
language with no ultimate control over what the user sees. The designer in
me is cringing.

Does anyone know whether Unix users typically customize their windowing
preferences? How can I even know what the end users are looking at? How
should I configure my system or should I leave it at the default?

Several people inquired whether the Linux is just the server. The answer is
that we need to be able to support users with Linux or Windows as their
desktop environment.

My comments about KDE looking hideous also raised some questions. To be
more specific, the "ugliness" is referring to the ways widgets are
rendered. Most are oversized compared to their Win/Mac equivalents and look
less polished and more ungainly.

Most of the replies indicated that Unix users can and will configure
themselves any which way and there is no predicting what any given end
user's configuration might look like. A number of people pointed out that
most Unix users will be using Mozilla rather than NS 4.x or may even be
using other browsers like Amaya, Opera, and Konquerer, and even Lynx.

Based on the replies I've received, I'm still not convinced there is any
way to do a web page that has forms that will be aesthetically pleasing in
a unix environment. I had a HUGE number of responses and am only including
the representative ones that are most immediately relevant to designing for
unix (though there were many thoughtful replies I'm skipping over -- I hope
no one throws rocks at me!)  I've also edited some of the replies in the
interest of not making this the biggest post to ever hit the list.

Following are the replies:

Trent Bartlem
As you may have noticed, linux GUI widgets are as varied as the browsers that
display them, and may not correlate very well to the window manager used to
launch them (depending on browser).

If you are looking for a 'standard' window format, well, there isn't one. You
will cover most bases by installing the latest version of Gnome and KDE onto
your box (Linux users (stereo)typically have recent versions of fun stuff like
windowing systems).

=========

The developers? I'd say you can expect a good number of them to be working
in a straight command-line environment, and an even larger number to be
working in X  without KDE or Gnome or any other window manager -- just an
xterm and whatever app windows they happen to have open.

Managers? What kind of managers? And what level of techiedom are you
assuming for them? They may be more likely to stick with the default, but
then the default on a bunch of Linux distros is Gnome, not KDE. And of
course Solaris is different yet again....

Amy Hendrix - Durham, NC

==========

Ask Slashdot. seriously - if it gets posted you'll get more interesting
feedback than the handful of developers and academics on CHI-WEB who focus
on Unix. (not that there aren't a lot of *nix people on the list, just that
we mostly design for the browsers of the day - and Galeon or Konqueror on
the latest Debian distro just doesn't enter the picture that often.

Besides, can't a VA employee get special placement in the submissions queue
;)

cheers,

Jess

===========

Andrew McNaughton
You may not need a second box.  Consider using something like VMware for
USD 80 plus a bit of extra memory.  This gives you a virtual machine which
can run a different operating system on the same hardware at the same time
(you still need a copy of windows to install in the virtual machine).
You can talk to a unix server environment from a windows web client all on
the one machine and mix and match tools while accessing shared file space
between the two.

 > Can you alter the way widgets are drawn using stylesheets? Do the user
 > preferences (Motif) override the stylesheet? The default windowing system
 > (KDE on my box) settings make for hideous looking web pages, but I'm

motif and KDE both borrow from your X resources.  This is likely to have
some impact on form widgets and potentially fonts, but not too much else.
The Konqueror browser is occasionally useful because of it's integration
with the KDE desktop, but mozilla and opera are much better.  Both of
these rival MSIE for standards compliance on most fronts, and appear
substantially similar to MSIE for most pages.  I don't use Konqueror much
any more, which I suspect you may be talking about?.

 > realizing that I have no clue what user settings might already be. I guess
 > this gets at the heart of HTML as design versus HTML as just a markup
 > language with no ultimate control over what the user sees. The designer in
 > me is cringing.
 >
 > Does anyone know whether Unix users typically customize their windowing
 > preferences? How can I even know what the end users are looking at? How
 > should I configure my system or should I leave it at the default?

There's many different window managers, window manager themes, widget
themes, browsers and browser themes..  Most users play arround with
pre-set configurations, and perhaps change a few colors and fonts here and
there, and then don't bother much more.  I don't spend much time on this,
but every unix desktop installation I've had (and theres been a few) has
had quite a different look.

Mozilla and Opera are the best available browsers for most unix platforms
these days, but Netscape is still commonly used as well as Konqueror and
a plethora of others are available.

 > The target market is software developers and managers.

They use unix, or you use unix to develop for general users? (Kayla replies
- They may be using unix or Win)

============

The dumb windowing systems on UNIX allow you greatly modify just about
everything. Most don't, some will. The few who will tend to be very, very vocal
when these capabilities aren't provided.

There is a belief in this marketplace that the user has control over the look
and feel, and not the software vendor.

In addition, designing for GUIs is very difficult in that the typical UNIX user
is much more keyboard centric than the windows user. This is coupled with a
widget set that is less robust and even harder to work with. What I've seen is
that, because most widget sets aren't commercial, the developers haven't spent
the time working at the periphery to handle the weird cases.

Another problem is that most windows can be fully resized and the attitude
seems
to be "well, the user resized it, what do you expect!".

As a designer, I would stay away from customizing your desktop. You want to
work
with the native system that will be provided. However, you'll be blessed with
knowing that no matter what you come up with, some window manager (which is
different than a window system) will do its best to mess up what ever you do.

Barry Kingsbury (who's spent much more time on UNIX than Windows)

========
My experience during the time I worked at Oracle --- a **very** heavy UNIX
house if ever there was one --- was that customizing the windowing
environment was actively (strongly!) DIScouraged. Conformity was valued
highly as it made things much easier for the Sys Admins to configure,
reconfigure, and troubleshoot. I have little other experience with such
UNIX-heavy environments, but many colleagues have anecdotally spoken of
similar situations in other corporate UNIX environments: the message from
their IT departments is typically, "Leave it alone!!!" The result for the
Web pages and interface windows I was responsible for was that they were
utilitarian, occasionally awkward and, in some cases, downright ugly ---
but they were standardized for UNIX, which was the overriding goal.

--Matt

Matt Prather
BULCmale Enterprises

============

 > Can you alter the way widgets are drawn using stylesheets? Do the user
 > preferences (Motif) override the stylesheet?

Sorry, what widgets? Are you talking about form elements in HTML
pages? If so, the window system does affect their appearance but
you can address some aspects with CSS. That partially depends on
the browser, of course, as in all things Web.

Hassan Schroeder ----------------------------- [log in to unmask]
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com

=======

>The target market is software developers and managers.


If these are serious Unix-users, if you restrict their options, they will
rebel. If restrict the options, then you may never be able to sell
effectively to the serious Unix types.

Barry Caplan

===========

but ... I don't see how X or your WM would affect webpages, so maybe you're
referring to the widgets? That's controlled by yet another layer - GTK for
me, QT for you. Also themeable, but neither is used by Netscape or Mozilla.
The other browsers (Galeon, Skipstone, Konqueror...) may use them - but
refer to the above: Gecko browsers work well with CSS widget styling.

Beth Skwarecki

    --------------------------------------------------------------
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               About CHI-WEB: http://www.sigchi.org/web/
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March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 2
February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
December 1997, Week 2
December 1997, Week 1
November 1997, Week 4
November 1997, Week 2
October 1997, Week 3
September 1997, Week 5
September 1997, Week 4
September 1997, Week 3
September 1997, Week 1
August 1997, Week 4
August 1997, Week 2
August 1997, Week 1
July 1997, Week 4
July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1
January 1997, Week 5

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