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CHI-WEB  July 2003, Week 2

CHI-WEB July 2003, Week 2

Subject:

SUMMARY: Online community group software (LONG)

From:

Whitney Quesenbery <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Whitney Quesenbery <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 12 Jul 2003 22:15:27 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (460 lines)

I asked:

"I'd like to hear about your experiences in using web-based group 
applications, such as Yahoo Groups. I'm specifically interested in tools 
which are intended to (or can be used) by community groups or informal 
teams of people who are not all within a single company -- soccer teams, 
club, volunteer organizations. What tools have you used (at what cost)? 
What are some of the problems (or successes) with features, usability, 
adoption? What makes these groups thrive?"


There were a dozen replies, that fell into three groups:

1. Shared content management of a web site or knowledge base of some kind 
were usually mentioned as tools, but there was little further discussion on 
what makes them work.
2. Wikis - for those who don't know what a Wiki is, see 
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiWikiWeb. They were cited as good collaboration 
tools for building a shared site or "knowledge base"
2. Groupware tool suites, of which Yahoo!Groups was the most frequently 
mentioned (with the ads most often listed as the major drawback.

There were also some good, thoughtful and sometimes long comments on what 
makes a group work or fail. They follow the list of tools.

Someone also cited this article:
A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy - Clay Shirky
http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html



TOOLS

Topica (www.topica.com)

Smartgroups (www.smartgroups.com)

Yahoo Groups (groups.yahoo.com)

Groove. There is a free version of groove that is very nice. Not 
x-platform. Requires download (not in browser). The functionality is 
amazing, and it is very usable, but not in a browser. Ultimate peer-to-peer 
collab system. "Ray Ozzie founded Groove Networks in October 1997. Ray is 
best known as the creator of Lotus Notes." (www.groove.net)

eRoom.net. Costs money. I don't know the costs (FYI, eRoom is a Documentum 
company).

There are other options out there, as well as just blog options which are 
used by communities as well.

Community Enabler
http://www.communitye.net
Powerful, feature rich online Content Management and Collaboration 
Framework developed using the Zope application server and the CMF Plone portal

There are links to a number of different Open Publishing tools on
http://www.unesco.org/webworld/portal_freesoft/Software/Communication/Open_P 
ublishing/

EZ Systems- EZPublish
http://www.ez.no/products
Open Source content management system
http://www.ez.no/home/reference_list
List of sites using the tool with links

Drupal
http://drupal.org
Open source platform and CMS


WIKIS
There are so many open source wiki-concept implementations:
   * php wiki (http://phpwiki.sourceforge.net)
   * Twiki (http://twiki.sourceforge.net)
   * OpenWiki (http://openwiki.com)
   * UseModWiki (http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl)
   * & more you can find at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines

- free wiki farm at www.seedwiki.com

- WackoWiki (http://wiki.oversite.ru/WackoWiki)



DETAILED COMMENTS

------------------------------------------------------
I've been using Yahoo group for several years both as a moderator and group 
member.  I like it a lot.  It has many useful features and they are easy to 
use in general.

Here are some advantages I can think of:
1. Very easy to set up.
2. You can set up a group for public or private use.  If it is private, 
members join the group only by invitation or approval by the moderator(s).
3. There can be more than one moderators.
4. You can set it up so that only moderator(s) can send out e-mails and 
when members reply, they reply back to the sender.  This is a very useful 
feature for schools that you don't want parents/students to send e-mails to 
all.
5. It is very easy to share files and photos.
6. It is free.

Diadvantages:
1. You can only add up to 100 members when you set up the group.  After 
every 24 hours, you can add addition 50 members.  For a group of 300+ 
members, it took me several days to complete the setup.
2. When you receive a message, sometimes you see the advertisement first 
and then the message.

- Cindy Lu

==================================================

I'm a member of a community of practice for government intranet managers in
Australia called 'Intranet-Peers'.  the group uses Yahoo and i have no
gripes with the tool.  it was originally set up in November last year and
is gaining momentum.  on a busy day, there may be 8-10 posts, on a quiet
one, none.  it's still early days, but i think it's already a very valuable
forum for exchange of ideas and good practice.

the secret of its success are:
*  it has the guiding hand and enthusiasm of a consultant who has an active
interest in knowledge management and communities of practice.
    see:  http://www.steptwo.com.au
    James Robertson does not provide all the enthusiasm for the group, just
injects a bit at crucial times to keep the momentum going.
*  James holds two day face-to-face seminars every few months where people
get to meet each other, share best practice and generate new ideas.
*  ideas generated from seminars are posted to the group so that all
members receive a benefit.
*  social evenings are organised by group members in Sydney, Melbourne and
Canberra.

i know James Robertson is a fan of Etienne Wenger who is, to quote his
website, 'an independent thinker, researcher, consultant, author, and
speaker . . . mostly known for my work on communities of practice'.  a
quick browse of his site turned up a report that might interest you.  it's
called Supporting Communities of Practice: A survey of community oriented
technologies.
see:  http://www.ewenger.com/tech/index.htm

i'm sure that each community is very different in its needs.  some already
have a strong community feeling.  others, like ours, needed the personal
and social contact to be 'engineered' to create that community feeling and
generate enthusiasm.  i've seen many other groups fail in this regard.

John Castley

==================================================

I'm an avid user of Yahoo! Groups. I manage 5 groups, and am subscribed to
20 more.

The smaller, exclusive groups (e.g. former members of a volleybal team) have
10 to 20 members, the average for a discussion-type list is about 100 to 200
members, and then there are some one-way distribution lists
(newsletter-style, e.g. "Google-friends") that have 10.000 to 20.000
members.

Some groups' managers encourage the use of the available tools by setting up
bookmark and uploaded file structures, but I rarely see them used. Lately
I've seen a few spam attempts at Yahoo! groups, which forced some managers
into moderating the group, or approving all new members.

For one-way groups, typically one user can drive the list's traffic. If the
list is really a nice-thing or one man's hobby, don't expect too much
traffic, except from new members that ask one or two questions.

 From the number of subscribers to the "eGroups-Moderator-News" group
(916672) it looks like Yahoo! is close to hosting a million groups.

I've also seen groups at Topica (www.topica.com) and Smartgroups
(www.smartgroups.com) but never managed groups there. Somehow I find
subscribing to those harder, but then again, setting up the Yahoo! account
was a significant hurdle as well when I did that in 1999, I think.

Peter Boersma

===============================================

For the examples you gave, Yahoo groups are the best for what you can do. 
They are very usable.

Issues:
1. you have to register w/ Yahoo (a daunting and annoying process w/ 
consequences).
2. lots of adverts.

Pros:
Adoption is easy. People trust Yahoo generally.

Compared to MSN, it is much better in terms of features and usabily and in 
dealing w/ the mother company.

Dave Heller

===================================================

What makes them thrive?  If you mean, how do they support themselve, then 
the anser is, in a word: advertising.

The providers vary as to policies, reliability, and sometimes cost (though 
many free ones are quite effective).   Side-features (like group file 
space, privacy features, etc etc etc) vary and should be compared.  One 
size does not fit all and your needs are whatever your needs are.

I've used many, and can say overall that the problems are not usually 
caused by the services/servers, but by problem members or problem 
moderators.  You have to be firm but permissive, which makes no sense, but 
can be done.

Of course spam is always a problem, and doesn't depend on your provider: 
expect the problem to occur sooner or later.  There are different ways to 
deal with it, the choice being largely dependent on how bad it gets.

That said, whether a group will blossom into vigorous and productive 
utility or wither into the three-emails-a-year dead zone or break down into 
unruliness and disorder and unprofessionalism is all about the members - 
whether you can attract  sound core of responsible participants or not -  - 
- if you do, they will be very protective and the group will more or less 
run itself.  Not totally so, but more or less.

If you can attract a sound core, that core itself will attract more good 
contributors and all will be as you hope.  Tend to that, and the rest is easy!

Lew Clayman

============================================

Most of my experience is has been with Yahoo!Groups and it's predecessor
eGroups for non-work groups.  I have also participated in developer
communities such as UML Café and message boards like Yahoo!Finance.

I am an active member of 3 communities which are geared for support and
information exchange.  I choose the online-only option instead of regular
emails.  The membership finds the community through websites relating to the
topic and word-of-mouth (or would that be word-of-mail?).  For two of the
communities, membership is worldwide.  The other one is US specific.

If you can tolerate the advertisements, Yahoo!Groups is effective.  One of
the groups expanded to a different forum because the volume of messages was
too great and some members were frustrated and annoyed by the ads and
changing 'interface'.  However, this effectively created a splinter
community and not an extension of the first.  Of the three communities, only
one of them takes advantage of the features of Group (polls, sharing
pictures, announcement boards) and one extensively uses the linked files.
The search archive is useful and all groups are moderated and member-only.

There is no cost associated with Yahoo!Groups but Yahoo keeps making noises
about it becoming a subscription feature.  The usage of features seems to be
dependent upon the focus of the community and the drive of the moderators.
The one community which uses these extensively came from eGroups where the
interface for this was better and easier -- they continued to use it after
the conversion to Yahoo.  This might have something to do with the usage
patterns.

The usability of all of the software is poor, in my humble opinion.  I have
lost many posts because I hit the wrong key.  Yahoo changes the way they
impose ads regularly which adds to the frustration.  However, the drive is
to communicate with others and therefore members will put up with a lot.

I can't answer what makes them thrive.  In my experience with the groups,
people
        - share their experiences (what worked ... what doesn't work),
        - seek information and support (especially others experience and
explanations for difficult/emotional situations)
        - share successes to bolster others in community
        - vent with others 'who know'
        - discuss what they have been told by a 'professional' community
where they are on the outside (such as medical or legal)


Margaret Shore

==============================================

I have been the moderator of my private school's parent group on Yahoo
groups since before it was taken over by Yahoo! (going on 4 years now).

As the school matures several factors are coming into play that will cause
us to re-evaluate our use of this particular forum.

1) We are now getting a professional administration in place.  With this new
individual, I will probably no longer be the moderator.
2) We are not happy about the advertising.  Specifically, web cam ads are
particularly inappropriate for our audience.
3) Moderating the list has been fairly easy for me, if at times annoying.
Specifically, while each message sent to the group clearly indicates how to
unsubscribe, for the past 3 years, no one has every unsubscribed themselves,
relying instead on me.  Further, changing people's email addresses or
profiles, which should be easy either for the individual or the moderator
has proven difficult on Yahoo Groups.  (I have been forced to delete the
individual and re-subscribe them, for example).
4) As our own web site and services come up to speed, we may begin to create
our own majordomo list.  While I'm not certain that security would be
greater, the perception of propriety will definitely be increased.

With all of that said, the net result of having the group list has been
extremely positive.  At times, novices to the list will inadvertantly share
private email meant for one member, causing some embarrassment.  At other
times, members have complained about the amount of "trivial" traffic ("Me
too" and "Count me in").  I have two thoughts about this last complaint.

1) I can understand why members wouldn't want to clog their email boxes with
these sorts of replies.
On the other hand,
2) Having the entire group hear (see) who is willing to participate in
whatever it was that was requested builds a stronger sense of volunteerism.
Just as sociological studies have indicated that people will congregate
where there are already people, so too will people volunteer if they see
others stepping up.

In sum, the need for such a list (and to some extent the ability to share
files, although that has been significantly underused in our case) is very
high, whether we use a "free" service, or build it ourselves.

Leo Frishberg

===============================================

I m in a book club that currently uses a web-based group application. Your 
questions are fairly general, so if you don t mind a little bit of a 
ramble, let me recount our experience to date.

In a nutshell: our initial experience was marred by serious problems with 
registration and login. We moved to a different application and had greater 
success with that. And now we have settled into a pattern where 15% of our 
group use the application passively (i.e. they receive email notices, but 
do not send email or go to the group site area), 50% receive emails and 
also use  the application to send broadcast email notices to the entire 
group. and 35% use at least some of the other functionality available 
(share files, calendar, links page, database ).

About us: The group of 15 to 20 people meets monthly to discuss a book of 
fiction, drink wine, nibble treats and generally enjoy the good things in 
life. I am the only person in the group with a professional/critical 
orientation to software. (I do information architecture and usability.) The 
rest are in white collar occupations of various kinds, 30-50 years old; and 
most are competent or better computer/internet users.

Starting Out, two years ago: We had been communicating (about schedules, 
show/no-show status, what book to do, etc) by email for about a year. By 
the end of that year, all members of the group were using email fully (i.e. 
we did not have to supplement email communication with phone contact). At 
some point, there were rumblings about getting a web site . Then one of our 
members set us up on a Yahoo groups. It was an utter failure.

Registration woes: The person who set up the online group input the list of 
members, sending system-generated emails inviting them to join.  That s 
when things went bad. The log in and registration procedures were a 
complete fiasco. So we had lots of crash and burn. I tried doing some 
triage, at a distance, so learned remotely some of the issues...

Some people had tremendous difficulty following the flow/sequence of 
operations. Then, we found that forgetting a userid/password was a 
particularly painful, usually fatal, problem.  Finally, it seemed that 
users who responded to the invitation and successfully registered, while 
getting access to the mail list, did not receive access to the group s page 
itself. To do that required going through the full registration process for 
a yahoo webmail account. The registration process looped them through 
getting such an account, adding more userids and passwords to remember.  (I 
had been a member of another online group using the egroups application, 
but they were bought by Yahoo, and their relatively easy registration 
system was swallowed by the larger Yahoo system.)

Two Why's : People were confused and frustrated -- they had no idea why 
they were doing what they were doing. Why in two senses : Why #1 - did they 
need to put in all that registration information? It didn t relate to the 
book club and seemed intrusive. Why #2 they didn t know what 
features/functionality they were going to get. Demand was following supply. 
Most people had just gotten comfortable and learned to appreciate the 
informal email-only system.

Easier Registration: We moved over to smartgroups.com, a free service. 
Things went smoother and we were up and running fairly quickly. There were 
several usability advantage: first, there was only one level of service, 
not two levels (e.g. list only or list + web); second, being able to use 
any  email address as your userid for the application; third, and related 
to the second, not having to go through the registration process to get a 
special email address.

Low Rate of Adoption: So, we were all up and running on smartgroups and 
have been for about a year now. But I ve found that the only core, regular, 
use of the system is posting an event and using the automatic broadcast 
email. Some people use the broadcast email on its own (without calendar) in 
order to send messages. All other features online calendar, file sharing, 
database, posting links, etc. - are rarely used; each by only one of two 
people in the group. In fact, it emerged in a recent meeting that some 
people did not know how to schedule an even and send a group email.... that 
they regularly asked others (by phone, in person or through traditional 
email), to do use the group application for them.

The Social: Our group, in it s human incarnation is quite a tenacious 
survivor. Meetings always take place, attendance rises and falls, but there 
is a strong emotional pulse. And the group has been existence for more than 
ten years. The groupware did not affect this if i had to guess, I d say it 
seems to generally support it. But in some cases, users who had difficulty 
with the application used the group s other communication channels to cope 
with the software.

(BTW: As someone who thinks about interfaces, I feel that there are some 
big issues with smartgroups, particularly around the behaviour of menus and 
overall performance of the site. But I ll stick, in this account, to our 
group s experience, which I gather is your interest.)

To summarize: We had some major teething pains, around registration, and we 
have mixed levels of adoption of site functionality.


Avi Soudack


=================================================

Recently i have joined to Wiki-engine`development by myself -- today i
am a member of WackoWiki (http://wiki.oversite.ru/WackoWiki) team.

Our WackoWiki is a fork from WakkaWiki & have many nessesary
enhancements which allow us to use our wiki with purposes such as:
   * it-team messaging, polylogs
   * maintaining todo-lists
   * organizing project documentation
   * forming a workgroup containing people from different locations.

One of wiki-concept`s benefit is a very low cost of entrance of a person
into a community. There is no need to install special tool, no need to know 
HTML.
Simple wiki markup can be omitted by novice users but then it
stimulates them to know syntax better, step by step. I have observed
this effect on several nearby "not-a-computer-geek" users.

But even WackoWiki`s features not enough to satisfy our groupware
requirements. It still lacks:
   * deadline-notification tools
   * communicationware (comments system & discussion patterns we
   revealed still not enough)
   * time management & personnel management tools -- `cause we use our
   system as a tiny ERP.
   * catalogization tools -- `cause we use it as a KEE.

That`s it, hope it helps.

Whitney Quesenbery
Whitney Interactive Design, LLC
w. www.WQusability.com
e. [log in to unmask]
p. 908-638-5467

UPA  - www.upassoc.org
STC Usability SIG: www.stcsig.org/usability

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