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CHI-WEB  October 2003, Week 5

CHI-WEB October 2003, Week 5

Subject:

SUMMARY: Are Frames Evil?

From:

Maureen Kelly <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Maureen Kelly <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:01:44 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (205 lines)

The verdict is in: Frames arenít inherently evil, but can be used in
evil ways.

Frames still suffer from the same problems they did when they first
arrived on the scene. In addition to bookmarking, back button,
printing, and refreshing, several people mentioned difficulty with
search engines linking to subframes within a site and obliterating
navigational elements that would normally appear in another frame. A
couple people warned that, if youíre not careful in assigning clear
titles to frames, they can cause problems for assistive technology.

While some fixes and partial workarounds exist (see specifics in
people's replies), there seemed to be agreement that frames present
inherent tradeoffs, and that you need to weigh the costs and benefits
for any specific project.

Several people suggested that the downsides of frames are more
serious for public websites than for intranets or web apps, where you
might have more control over supported browser versions, and search
engine behavior is less important.

The main benefit people mentioned was keeping navigation elements
from scrolling off the screen. One respondent wrote that Fidelity
Investments has recently decided to use frames on their site
(http://www.fidelity.com/), and that they rarely make changes without
extensive research. Tim Semen mentioned Peapod (www.peapop.com) as
another site that uses frames effectively.

Excerpts below -- thanks to all who responded.

DAVID HELLER WRITES:
If you can work in netscape 7/ie 6 levels, than there is NO reason to
use frames. DHTML has progressed far enough that you never need to
use them.

LARRY HULL WRITES:
If poorly used, frames can be confusing to users of assistive
technology. Problems include not being able to navigate well because
developers still use positioning names (i.e., top, left right,
bottom) rather than something appropriate such as
<FRAME src="main.html" name="content" title="Where the content is
displayed">
<FRAME src="table_of_contents.html" name="navigation" title="Table of

Contents">

Assistive technology will read the TITLE element (found in the head
section and not to be confused with the title attribute shown in the
above code fragment) for each frame whereas the graphical browser
displays only the TITLE element of the main page. Assistive
technology users often hear something like "Welcome to GoLive
CyberStudio." because the developer never bothered to put in a TITLE
(i.e., change the default wording) for the frames.

KARL FAST WRITES:
I have a little test I use. If I can answer "yes" to all of these
questions then using frames is probably acceptable. The test is more
or less like this:

1. AUDIENCE: Is the application for internal use by a limited set of
   people?  Frames still, IMHO, make a poor choice for public apps
   intended for broad usage.

2. BROWSER FEATURES: Can I be sure that all of my potential users
   will be using a frames-capable browser? One might also want to
   consider javascript compliance since it's useful for overcoming
   various limitations in frames.

3. PRINTING: Can printing issues be overcome either through a
   technical solution (ie: javascript) or through user education? If
   the app is for a sufficiently small set of users, education might
   work.

4. BOOKMARKS: Will my users accept the inability to bookmark
   effectively? Frames break bookmarks real bad, but bookmarks aren't
   always necessary.

5. SEARCH ENGINES: Is it okay that external search engines (ie: my
   intranet-wide search engine) won't work well with my site? Put
   another way, if I need search, do I only need it internally to my
   application or is it important for external apps/users to access
   the data?

6. APPLICATION TYPE: Is what I'm building a task-centric
   application? This is best explained by example. The best
   frames-based use I ever saw was in a call-center for a telco. It
   was a web-interface to multiple mainframes and databases about
   every phone number, switch, and line that the company ran. It was
   beautiful. It was task and data-centric, not document centric.

MITCHELL EVAN WRITES:
As for bookmarking: A very partial solution would be to make those
nav-state cookies persistent. But then you could only have a single
bookmark to the whole application, you couldn't easily email a
bookmark... Many other problems arise with bookmarking and linking.

There are some other goals that might make frames worthwhile.
- Create separate scrollable regions in the browser window
- Frame someone else's web site, while maintaining a navigation
capable
of returning to your site
- Increase performance by implementing interactivity on the client
side
(JavaScript), saving server roundtrips

STEVE FOUTS WRITES:
Frames aren't evil in and of themselves. When frames came out, they
were significantly overused, and used in places where other solutions
would have been better choices. The result was a backlash against
them to the point that they fell out of favor. Now they are used much
more sparingly, as they should have been from the beginning.

Browser technology has not "progressed" significantly since the end
of the browser wars. The only advance, per se, is that most of the
browsers now are more standards compliant. The refresh button still
returns the frame to its initial state, the back button usually works
as you would expect it, it is still difficult to bookmark a page, it
is still difficult to print framed pages. Those are all still the
same. There are some workarounds in place, but they suffer from the
double pronged threat of different browsers handling the frames
themselves differently, and different browsers supporting JavaScript
differently.

If you are careful, you can use ECMA compliant javascript, server
side processing, and a few other tricks to mitigate most of the
problems.

Like all other design equations, there are trade offs. Frames offer a

solution to certain design problems, at a cost of introducing
problems of their own.

ASH DONALDSON WRITES:
My advice when creating a web app - make sure it looks nothing like a
browser and works like an app ie. things work in a seemingly
instantaneous manner (client side). Hide the 'server trips' from the
user. This is all rather tricky in the way of coding, but is well
worth it.

DICK PENN WRITES:
Your programmers should be able to set up something which adds global
nav to every page as an integral part of the page, so you wouldn't
need frames. The only downside is that, as the user scrolls a longer
page, global nav will scroll off the screen. With frames you can make
sure this doesn't happen. I think though, that this behaviour is so
familiar, people are OK with scrolling up to the top in order to get
anywhere else.

JOSEPHINE SCOTT WRITES:
They still have inherent accessibility issues.  Considerable effort
must be made to name each frame and to provide keyboard-able
navigation from one frame to the next to make the system accessible
to screen readers and keyboarders.  Systems that must be accessible
(and what should not?) must weigh the effort against the convenience.

JOHN O'DONOVAN WRITES:
There are ways around all the potential problems frames can create
and they can have benefits. Sometimes you can create a greater evil
in trying to avoid a lesser one :) I have seen site designs that
would benefit from frames because avoiding them has made things worse
and harder to use.

You may find this reference useful...
Are frames ever appropriate?
http://psychology.wichita.edu/optimalweb/frames.htm

------------------

ORIGINAL POST

What's the current verdict on using frames in web applications?

On a project I'm working on, we're considering frames as a way to
keep persistent navigation elements, well... persistent. Most of the
engineers and I share a knee-jerk sense that frames are evil, but I
don't want to dismiss them based on outdated information.

Have web technologies progressed far enough to overcome some of the
early disadvantages of frames? (Refresh and back button problems,
bookmarking problems, printing problems, etc.) What sorts of problems
do frames create today? And what kinds of workarounds are available?

Are there types of of users or sites where frames work well, and
others where they're to be avoided at all costs?

Please reply to me, and I'll be happy to summarize. Thanks!

-- Maureen




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August 1997, Week 2
August 1997, Week 1
July 1997, Week 4
July 1997, Week 3
July 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 5
June 1997, Week 4
June 1997, Week 2
June 1997, Week 1
May 1997, Week 5
May 1997, Week 4
May 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 5
April 1997, Week 4
April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
February 1997, Week 2
February 1997, Week 1
January 1997, Week 5

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