As for "fun"... I suggest to use ML (SML) instead of VB -- there will be
a lot "fun" because (as I recall) every function definition in SML begins
exactly with the keyword "fun".
Alexander Kopilovitch [log in to unmask]
Saint-Petersburg
Russia
> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:22:42 -0500
> From: "Richard L. Conn" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: What the competition looks like
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Hi, Jim,
>
> Yes, you have to cover the laws of motion in physics,
> but you can do it many ways. You can read out of a
> book, you can teach out of a lab, you can use multimedia
> technology to enhance the experience, or you can employ
> a combination of these approaches. You can also
> teach programming in many ways and with many languages,
> and some are less of an experience than others.
>
> You can make it fun for them ... heighten the experience,
> and make the work easier. But you still have to teach
> the material.
>
> I really hate seeing a student drop out. I think making
> it fun helps reduce that problem. But it still happens.
> My Freshman dropout rate is a little more than 50% this
> semester by my current estimates. My graduate student
> dropout rate was close to 0%, but that's a different
> game entirely. I still tried to make it fun, tho.
> There's nothing wrong with trying to make it fun,
> just like there's nothing wrong with using VB to
> teach Freshmen. There are about 350 colleges and
> universities participating in the Microsoft Academic
> Cooperative. I think a few others think so as well.
> But then again, that IS my opinion, and it's based
> on my own experiences.
>
> Rick
> ----------------------------------
> Richard Conn, ASE and PAL Manager
> http://xenadu.home.mindspring.com/
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: jim hopper [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 5:07 PM
> > To: Richard L. Conn; [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: What the competition looks like
> >
> >
> > Rick,
> >
> > Well being trained (and having worked as a teacher) of physics years
> > ago, let me recast your justification for vb and see how you feel
> > about it ;-)
> >
> > Physics would keep so many more freshmen if we didnt bore them with
> > the fundamentals of silly things like newtons laws of motion, and
> > such. if we just went right to learning about how to use them to
> > make weapons, and other glitzy fun things we would excite way more of
> > them to stay in the field.
> >
> > I do understand you need to capture students attention, but i suspect
> > you are misleading students into thinking computer programming is
> > easy. what happens next year when it gets HARD and they have to
> > buckle down and do real work instead of just play? i suspect you move
> > the dropout problem to upper level classes , and the students have
> > wasted their time pursuing a subject that isnt really as advertised.
> > i mean after all they all have seen quake, etc they KNOW that
> > programming can result in spectacular fun things. if they really have
> > what it takes they can move from that to getting through the druge
> > work.
> >
> > jim
> >
> > At 3:01 PM -0500 12/1/99, Richard L. Conn wrote:
> > >William,
> > >
> > >I really have to disagree with your statement about
> > >VB. We are talking about teaching Freshmen, not
> > >Juniors or Seniors. In a very practical sense, if you
> > >try to tell Freshmen how great generics, inheritance,
> > >etc., are, it's likely that those who don't quit after
> > >the first two weeks will have not done so because they
> > >fell asleep and did not wake up in time ;-). I used
> > >to think Ada for Freshmen was the way to go as well
> > >until I actually started teaching Freshmen (all my
> > >previous courses were graduate level or industry).
> > >Now that I've dealt on this level, being able to teach
> > >a fun, visual language where they can have a running
> > >program at the end of a three-hour lecture/lab on the
> > >first day that displays full-color glossey pictures
> > >and has push buttons and dialog boxes is a whole
> > >different level than just having a program that prints
> > >"Hello, World." Then, having later discussions about
> > >how it is not cool to have Windows crash while your
> > >airplane it flying with it rings home. And when
> > >objects and classes become so natural that when they
> > >look at other languages and don't immediately see them,
> > >they ask why the objects aren't there, I think we have
> > >a good thing.
> > >
> > >Different languages for different purposes is a theme
> > >from day one. In the meantime, programming at least
> > >starts out by being fun, and that's the hook you want
> > >for these people.
> > >
> > >So, no, you did not convince me. VB is for the
> > >beginners.
> > >
> > >Rick
> > >
> > >----------------------------------
> > >Richard Conn, ASE and PAL Manager
> > >http://xenadu.home.mindspring.com/
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Team Ada: Ada Advocacy Issues (83 & 95)
> > > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Borgia, William M.
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 1:46 PM
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: Re: What the competition looks like
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rick Conn wrote:
> > > > > You raise some very good concerns. I'm glad to say
> > > > > that VB is not the only language the CS dept uses.
> > > > > The approach I'm taking with my Freshmen is that VB
> > > > > is fun, easy to learn, and there is a lot of object
> > > > > orientation there. You can see my course slides
> > > > > on my University website for the objects and classes
> > > > > part of the course. VB is kind of like a hook in
> > > > > this case. I also talk about Ada, by the way, in the
> > > > > VB class.
> > > >
> > > > > I'm a firm believer in building in the students an
> > > > > infrastructure they can use to move in any direction,
> > > > > regardless of language or technology change.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Borgia:]
> > > >
> > > > Of those three languages (VB, Ada and C++), VB is perhaps
> > > > the worst
> > > > choice for an introductory course. Sure, your statement about
> > > > infrastructure is correct, but consider the stronger
> > > > infrastructure that the
> > > > students would likely develop with Ada as the introductory language.
> > > >
> > > > We don't need to start the whole argument again, but
> > VB (and often
> > > > C++ and usually Java too) lacks some important
> > characteristics inherent in
> > > > Ada. These include strong enumerations, subtyping and
> > ranging, generics,
> > > > meaningful parameter modes, tasking and a safe and elegant
> > > > implementation of
> > > > pointers, to name a few.
> > > >
> > > > VB shines in how well Microsoft has integrated it
> > into its Office
> > > > suite. By the way, have they improved on error handling
> > since the days of
> > > > "on error goto?"
> > > >
> > > > VB and C++ often teach introductory students bad habits. An
> > > > instructor who exploits the best features of Ada will help
> > ward off these
> > > > bad habits in the future. Having this "infrastructure," the
> > > > students would
> > > > be more likely to develop better applications in C++, Java,
> > VB or whatever
> > > > when the time comes. The converse is much less likely to happen.
> > > >
> > > > Bill Borgia
> >
> > At a recent computer software engineering course in the US, the
> > participants
> > were given an awkward question to answer. "If you had just boarded an
> > airliner and discovered that your team of programmers had been responsible
> > for the flight control software, how many of you would disembark
> > immediately?"
> > unknown author
>
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