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Sender: "Team Ada: Ada Advocacy Issues (83 & 95)" <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:17:45 -0600
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I couldn't agree more. ACT is great, but the problem is that their support
costs much more than that "included" with the RTOS toolsets. That is what
the holders of the purse strings see, not the savings due to better tools.
The govt's focus on COTS is driving a big part of it, it costs more but they
feel better about it because they saved money in the current budget. And
yes, it is backwards.

The problem remains the I can't throw a chart on the overhead and prove
beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ada will save money in the long run. Those
numbers exist for Ada83 in some cases, the Verdix paper is excellent. Ada95
doesn't have that paper trail yet, by the time it has it may be to late for
many of us. It's to easy for the anti-Ada people to show how much more it
costs to use Ada, at least in terms of startup and short term views.

Ada is the solution for long term projects that have to work, the problem
that I see is that very few people want to take the long view. And is long
term a year, two, ten??? There is to much focus on doing it quick and cheap
because it looks good on this quarter's financial report.

John T Apa                              [log in to unmask]
L-3 CSW                                 (801) 594-3382
PO Box 16850                            Fax: (801) 594-2195
640 North 2200 West                     Salt Lake City, UT. 84116-0850



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carlisle, Martin [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 3:31 PM
> To:   [log in to unmask]
> Subject:      Re: How to provide Ada with the best possible GUI. was RE:
> Two in
>
> What do you mean by support?  My experience is that sure I can get non-Ada
> stuff pretty cheap, but the "support" people never can answer any question
> I've ever had.  The closest I've gotten on any support call is "yes,
> that's
> a problem and we may have a solution for you in a month."  With ACT, I've
> always gotten a workaround within 24 hours, or an explanation of what I
> was
> doing wrong.
>
> --Martin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 3:03 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: How to provide Ada with the best possible GUI. was RE: Two
> in
>
>
> Yes, I've used gnat in the past and it was great. However our current
> position is such that we need supported tools. We get a nice set of tools
> with our OSs, all c. Anything for Ada costs extra. The cost estimates
> we've
> gotten from various vendors has been incredibly high (yes, even for gnat
> support) for DE's that we can aquire for much less using c/c--. We don't
> want to write BSPs or port compilers, we just want the tools that will
> allow
> us to get to solving our domain problems.
>
> Personally I'd rather spend the money and get the better tools in Ada but
> I
> can only recommend a course of action, not approve it. My management and
> customers can't justify maintaining two languages. Tucker was out here
> earlier this year to help promote the cause, but without a competitively
> priced and supported Ada system we'll be headed down the dark road of
> c/c--.
>
> Before everyone jumps on it, yes, I know in the long run the Ada tools are
> more productive and cost effective. The problem is that it's difficult to
> find any data that proves that point. Most reports and studies don't have
> enough hard data on the benefits. I am a firm believer in Ada, half the
> people here call me John Ada, and I never pass up an opportunity to show
> my
> co-workers how Ada might have made a particular bit of SW better, faster,
> or
> more robust. I want to keep Ada (after all, it makes my life easier) but
> the
> way things are going it'll be a very tough sell.
>
> John T Apa                              [log in to unmask]
> L-3 CSW                                 (801) 594-3382
> PO Box 16850                            Fax: (801) 594-2195
> 640 North 2200 West                     Salt Lake City, UT. 84116-0850
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jacob Sparre Andersen [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 2:39 PM
> > To:   Apa, John T. @ CSW-SLC
> > Cc:   [log in to unmask]
> > Subject:      Re: How to provide Ada with the best possible GUI. was RE:
> > Two in
> >
> > John:
> >
> > > What is the time frame for such a thing? I'm fighting the perception
> > that
> > > Ada is to expensive and not mainstream enough. Anything that could
> give
> > me
> > > an ada development system ala gcc or similar would go a long way to at
> > least
> > > maintaining our Ada project.
> >
> > There is already an "ada development system ala gcc". Gcc
> > compiles Ada too. If you want a ready-to-run version have
> > a look at <URL:ftp://cs.nyu.edu/pub/gnat/>.
> >
> > Good luck,
> >
> > Jacob
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------
> >     --  E-mail:         [log in to unmask]           --
> >     --  Web...: <URL:http://hugin.ldraw.org/Jacob/>  --
> >     ---------------------------------------------------

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