From: Bob Leif To: Ron Oliver et al. I cannot understand how the other engineering and scientific departments at a university tolerate the total lack of professional behavior, incompetence, and irresponsibility of there colleagues in computer science departments. As a chemist, I would have been severely reprimanded and probably sent to the campus shrink if I told the students to use technical grade chemicals for research or pharmaceutical manufacturing. As a professor of Biomedical Engineering, I would have asked for the resignation of any faculty member who taught that good manufacturing practices were irrelevant. One could make a much better argument for teaching Ebonics in an English department than C or one of its relatives as a first language or as a language of choice in a computer science department. -----Original Message----- From: Team Ada: Ada Advocacy Issues (83 & 95) [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of S. Ron Oliver Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Problems with C-class languages ( wasRe: SE-book 6.ed) At 10:24 AM 1/31/01 -0600, Tony wrote: . . . >I spent the week recording my "Poor man's language" list of things I did not >like about Java, . . . . . . >P.S. I would be terribly interested in finding a place to discuss other >Ada-philes views on the Java language and how Ada can learn lessons for >possible future iterations. The two most serious problems with all C-class languages are so well known to us it seems we forget about them. The real tragedy with Java is that Sun had people working the Java project who knew about these serious problems, yet virtually nothing was done about them. Problem 1: C-class languages are FULL of ambiguities. It is just professionally irresponsible, especially for an academic, to endorse such ill-conceived languages for any meaningful purpose except as examples of how NOT to specify a programming language. (Indeed, some of the more serious flaws in the language were well known to be problems, as experienced with other languages, even when Richie and Thompson did that first dastardly deed - they simply didn't bother to do their homework.) Problem 2: By the time Java was conceived there were a LOT of languages, including Ada, that had shown the benefits of having some powerful language features, such as clearly understandable parameter modes, range limitations, well-conceived generics, clean block structure, etc. C-class languages, including Java, offer very little "language power". The reason C-class languages become so "popular" is because the overwhelming majority of software types (including academes who really SHOULD know better) who THINK they are a reasonable development tool, are just utterly incompetent. They have had neither the proper education, nor the proper training to be permitted to make language choice decisions. Believe me, we do NOT want Ada to become attractive to these people. We want our industry, and society at large, to begin to demand that people who do or teach software development have some credible preparation for doing so. This change is admittedly slow in coming, but it is inevitable. And Ada is doing surprisingly well, holding its own, and being adopted by more people, in all sectors of the industry. It'll still be here when sensible people start making sensible, scientific decisions and stop being driven by hype. 'nough said (for now). sro S. Ron Oliver, semi-retired professor of Computer Science and Computer Engineering. www.csc.calpoly.edu/~sroliver caress Corporation is proud to be the U.S. representative for Top Graph'X, developers of high quality software components, using Ada. For more information, check out www.topgraphx.com. Tired of sucky software! ? Check out www.caressCorp.com and follow the links to software sucks and The Oliver Academy.