I have followed the discussion on the relationship between information architecture and usability engineering with great interest, especially because I'm starting on a project which presents problems related to the issue. I hope that some of you who have contributed with so many interesting comments and observations can give me some advice and perhaps references for relevant literature. First of all let me say that at the usability lab where I work we do not consider usability engineering only to be connected with issues of evaluation, but rather to be an issue in all phases of the development cycle (ideally; in reality we - as most other usability engineers - fight with organizational and disciplinary obstacles). I'm presently engaged in a project in which we have started developing a "frame" to be implemented in different websites (much like what Gail McLaughlin called a "wireframe"??). The developers are, therefore, interested in the structure of the frame in connection with the user's conception of the information presented and not in the specific visual and interactional design. Their general strategy is: "Seperate content from design". Or (using Jennifer Flemings distinction): seperate the construction of the logical organization of the site from the construction of the visual organization (the construction of a usable visual organization that supports the logical organization is done by the customers who buy the frame to include it in their own website). This is a new situation for me, since we usually work with evaluating (and thus producing input for a continuous process of iterative design) the relationship between the two; that is: How does the visual design support the logical organization of information (among other things). And usually I would be very sceptical about seperating issues of content from issues of design - or issues of content from context!! It seems to me that the two determine each other? But I might be confusing the issue?? How do information architects and usability engineers feel about the distinction?? Anyway, the distinction is right here on my desk for me to cope with, and my problem is to involve users in the process and have them give comments on the structure/the logical organization of information and use this knowledge as a stepping stone for our cooperation with the developers of the frame. Our plan is to interview targeted users to try to uncover the goals, needs and tasks that drive them to the information (however that information is represented or made available). After this we plan to engage users in commentating a prototype representing a logical organization of the information (which will be changes as we go along) - that is commentating the information architecture in a process of iterative design for about one month (that is the timeframe I'm afraid). My question is this: How does one evaluate the logical organization of information? How does one make users focus on issues of structure and not on the temporary visual design of the structure (the structure of information is presented on a test site available for the public/the users)? Does anyone have experience with participatory design of information architecture (which is a step further than user centered design as I see it - since we are trying to engage targeted users to take active part in commenting and suggesting changes for the information architecture)?? And what's the relevant literature on the subject? Hope to get comments on these practical problems related to the discussion on IA/UE and to hear how some of you have tackled problems of this kind. Thanks - also for an interesting discussion and to Louis Rosenfeld for bringing it up, Klaus ----------------- Klaus Kaasgaard Consultant The Usability Lab Kommunedata Lautrupparken 40, 2750 Ballerup, DK Ph: +45 44686444 - 4693 E-mail: [log in to unmask] http://www.kmd.dk/cfb/