As for "fun"... I suggest to use ML (SML) instead of VB -- there will be a lot "fun" because (as I recall) every function definition in SML begins exactly with the keyword "fun". Alexander Kopilovitch [log in to unmask] Saint-Petersburg Russia > Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:22:42 -0500 > From: "Richard L. Conn" <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: What the competition looks like > To: [log in to unmask] > > Hi, Jim, > > Yes, you have to cover the laws of motion in physics, > but you can do it many ways. You can read out of a > book, you can teach out of a lab, you can use multimedia > technology to enhance the experience, or you can employ > a combination of these approaches. You can also > teach programming in many ways and with many languages, > and some are less of an experience than others. > > You can make it fun for them ... heighten the experience, > and make the work easier. But you still have to teach > the material. > > I really hate seeing a student drop out. I think making > it fun helps reduce that problem. But it still happens. > My Freshman dropout rate is a little more than 50% this > semester by my current estimates. My graduate student > dropout rate was close to 0%, but that's a different > game entirely. I still tried to make it fun, tho. > There's nothing wrong with trying to make it fun, > just like there's nothing wrong with using VB to > teach Freshmen. There are about 350 colleges and > universities participating in the Microsoft Academic > Cooperative. I think a few others think so as well. > But then again, that IS my opinion, and it's based > on my own experiences. > > Rick > ---------------------------------- > Richard Conn, ASE and PAL Manager > http://xenadu.home.mindspring.com/ > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jim hopper [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 5:07 PM > > To: Richard L. Conn; [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: What the competition looks like > > > > > > Rick, > > > > Well being trained (and having worked as a teacher) of physics years > > ago, let me recast your justification for vb and see how you feel > > about it ;-) > > > > Physics would keep so many more freshmen if we didnt bore them with > > the fundamentals of silly things like newtons laws of motion, and > > such. if we just went right to learning about how to use them to > > make weapons, and other glitzy fun things we would excite way more of > > them to stay in the field. > > > > I do understand you need to capture students attention, but i suspect > > you are misleading students into thinking computer programming is > > easy. what happens next year when it gets HARD and they have to > > buckle down and do real work instead of just play? i suspect you move > > the dropout problem to upper level classes , and the students have > > wasted their time pursuing a subject that isnt really as advertised. > > i mean after all they all have seen quake, etc they KNOW that > > programming can result in spectacular fun things. if they really have > > what it takes they can move from that to getting through the druge > > work. > > > > jim > > > > At 3:01 PM -0500 12/1/99, Richard L. Conn wrote: > > >William, > > > > > >I really have to disagree with your statement about > > >VB. We are talking about teaching Freshmen, not > > >Juniors or Seniors. In a very practical sense, if you > > >try to tell Freshmen how great generics, inheritance, > > >etc., are, it's likely that those who don't quit after > > >the first two weeks will have not done so because they > > >fell asleep and did not wake up in time ;-). I used > > >to think Ada for Freshmen was the way to go as well > > >until I actually started teaching Freshmen (all my > > >previous courses were graduate level or industry). > > >Now that I've dealt on this level, being able to teach > > >a fun, visual language where they can have a running > > >program at the end of a three-hour lecture/lab on the > > >first day that displays full-color glossey pictures > > >and has push buttons and dialog boxes is a whole > > >different level than just having a program that prints > > >"Hello, World." Then, having later discussions about > > >how it is not cool to have Windows crash while your > > >airplane it flying with it rings home. And when > > >objects and classes become so natural that when they > > >look at other languages and don't immediately see them, > > >they ask why the objects aren't there, I think we have > > >a good thing. > > > > > >Different languages for different purposes is a theme > > >from day one. In the meantime, programming at least > > >starts out by being fun, and that's the hook you want > > >for these people. > > > > > >So, no, you did not convince me. VB is for the > > >beginners. > > > > > >Rick > > > > > >---------------------------------- > > >Richard Conn, ASE and PAL Manager > > >http://xenadu.home.mindspring.com/ > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Team Ada: Ada Advocacy Issues (83 & 95) > > > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Borgia, William M. > > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 1:46 PM > > > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > > Subject: Re: What the competition looks like > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick Conn wrote: > > > > > You raise some very good concerns. I'm glad to say > > > > > that VB is not the only language the CS dept uses. > > > > > The approach I'm taking with my Freshmen is that VB > > > > > is fun, easy to learn, and there is a lot of object > > > > > orientation there. You can see my course slides > > > > > on my University website for the objects and classes > > > > > part of the course. VB is kind of like a hook in > > > > > this case. I also talk about Ada, by the way, in the > > > > > VB class. > > > > > > > > > I'm a firm believer in building in the students an > > > > > infrastructure they can use to move in any direction, > > > > > regardless of language or technology change. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Borgia:] > > > > > > > > Of those three languages (VB, Ada and C++), VB is perhaps > > > > the worst > > > > choice for an introductory course. Sure, your statement about > > > > infrastructure is correct, but consider the stronger > > > > infrastructure that the > > > > students would likely develop with Ada as the introductory language. > > > > > > > > We don't need to start the whole argument again, but > > VB (and often > > > > C++ and usually Java too) lacks some important > > characteristics inherent in > > > > Ada. These include strong enumerations, subtyping and > > ranging, generics, > > > > meaningful parameter modes, tasking and a safe and elegant > > > > implementation of > > > > pointers, to name a few. > > > > > > > > VB shines in how well Microsoft has integrated it > > into its Office > > > > suite. By the way, have they improved on error handling > > since the days of > > > > "on error goto?" > > > > > > > > VB and C++ often teach introductory students bad habits. An > > > > instructor who exploits the best features of Ada will help > > ward off these > > > > bad habits in the future. Having this "infrastructure," the > > > > students would > > > > be more likely to develop better applications in C++, Java, > > VB or whatever > > > > when the time comes. The converse is much less likely to happen. > > > > > > > > Bill Borgia > > > > At a recent computer software engineering course in the US, the > > participants > > were given an awkward question to answer. "If you had just boarded an > > airliner and discovered that your team of programmers had been responsible > > for the flight control software, how many of you would disembark > > immediately?" > > unknown author >