Hi, Mike, Glad you joined in. You made a lot of good points here. Yes, our equations are a lot different. You are right about the nature of the universities ... in Georgia, we have a really different way of handling higher education that is double-edged in my opinion. With the Lottery providing huge amounts of money for education, high school students with an average above a certain level get to go to college for (I think) free so long as they retain their average. I could be wrong, but it's something like that ... either free or almost free. We also have classes teaching C++ to Freshmen. This is my first semester here, and when I saw some of my students doing so poorly, I asked the dept heads if there was a problem. Their response was that this kind of thing is typical and not to worry. So I kept following the lesson plan with my own little Ada twists. I don't have the experience of trying to teach Ada to Freshmen (just graduate students and industry people), so I don't have a basis of comparison. But it continues to strike me that the fun aspects of VB let me cover the same or more material more effectively than I could have with Ada. And I'm introducing objects and classes from the start in a visual way. So, I think it does make a difference. Rick ---------------------------------- Richard Conn, ASE and PAL Manager http://xenadu.home.mindspring.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Team Ada: Ada Advocacy Issues (83 & 95) > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Michael Feldman > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 6:00 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: What the competition looks like > > > [said Rick] > > > I really hate seeing a student drop out. I think making > > it fun helps reduce that problem. But it still happens. > > My Freshman dropout rate is a little more than 50% this > > semester by my current estimates. > > And you're teaching VB to them, so clearly VB is not keeping > them in, is it? You guys really need to try to find out why so many > are bailing out. For whatever consolation it is to you, > I've heard of lots of 50% dropout rates in CS. > > At GW our dropout rate from freshman to sophomore year is typically > 25-30%; this is to be expected because a lot of students come into > CS with no clue about what it is, then bail out when they find > out there's (gasp!) math and science in it, not to mention > all the SE concepts they must get at least in the second course. > > If we had anything like a 50% bailout rate, we'd be REALLY > upset and trying VERY hard to figure out why. Of course, we are > also a middle-tier private university, dependent on (very) > high tuition. Maybe KSU, as a state school, is less concerned, > because their entrance standards may (by legislative fiat) > be lower. Dunno. > > And of course we are teaching Ada 95 in our first 2 courses, > so clearly an Ada-based curriculum does not, in itself, lead > to lower retention. And a VB-based one does not, in itself, > lead to higher retention. > > There are lots of factors here, Rick (and everyone) - after 25 > years as a full-time CS prof (and the one responsible for the first > 2 courses, and an undergrad advisor, and the curriculum chair...) > I'm convinced that there are no magic bullets. I don;t think a > really good discussion of currculum development needs to degenerate > into a language war - there is MUCH more to it than that, as our > respective situations make obvious. > > I hope John McCormick is reading this - I'm cc-ing him just to > be sure. He may have some things to say on this subject. > > [snip] > > > > Rick > > Mike