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I made no such assumption that everyone should get in line with Microsoft.
Like I said in my last message to Chris, there are domains in which it is
very compelling to go with Microsoft, and domains in which it is not.
At work, I'm leading a charge to go with Microsoft for our Ground-based
Data Systems for aircraft.  It will reduce our development cost, the
customer
(the Air Force, in this case) wants it to reduce their maintenance and
training costs,
it will help our retention (because software engineers see it as adding
value
to their resumes), and it fits the domain.  On our airborne mission
computers,
however, we are locked firmly onto UNIX right now.  The domain is
different -
the Ada development tools fit our needs well, the level of control we need
on the OS and environment is there, and so on.  In our web-based
environment,
I'm also leading the charge to move from UNIX to Windows, again because it
meets our needs and there is a big reduction in the total cost of ownership,
including the sophisticated tools that support web-based data collection and
analysis.

My trip report from the Microsoft Tech-Ed 2000 conference will be out soon,
and you'll see more of where I'm coming from on the web domain issue from
that.

Rick
====================================
Richard Conn, Principal Investigator
Reuse Tapestry


-----Original Message-----
From: jim hopper [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 1:25 PM
To: Richard Conn; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: R_Conn invites you to join ASE LIBRARY, an MSN Web
Community


Actually i wasnt asking you to change only commenting on your
assumption that everyone would get in line with a microsoft only
solution.

as far as finding an alternative, no i don't know of one.  standing
on principle is never as easy as just going with the flow ;-)

jim

At 8:11 PM -0400 7/6/00, Richard Conn wrote:
>Jim,
>
>I did not call the 5% insignificant ... I said they have other ways of
>contributing.
>
>If you can find me an alternative that has all the features and
>functionality
>at the same zero cost and support a more open approach, I'm all ears.
>
>====================================
>Richard Conn, Principal Investigator
>Reuse Tapestry
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: jim hopper [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 11:29 PM
>To: Richard Conn; [log in to unmask]
>Subject: RE: R_Conn invites you to join ASE LIBRARY, an MSN Web
>Community
>
>
>Richard,
>
>actually my reasons are mostly one of principle and partly practicability.
>
>On the practical i use a mac, and if it was as simple as changing to
>explorer it would annoy me but i might be able to deal.  however, its
>not really that simple.  msn is widely know to only fully support
>windows.  to fully participate i would have to change computers,
>Operating systems etc.  thats a lot to ask to participate in such an
>endeavor.  People are free to use in my mind whatever technology they
>find most useful, so i am not begrudging your choice.
>
>on the principle side i belive strongly in diversity in how problems
>are solved.  Microsoft has worked very hard to take freedom of choice
>away from us.  unless people stand up and say look i will not
>participate in your technology as long as you commit these
>anti-social acts, they will continue to do it. there is an equivalent
>mac only technology for doing web sites file sharing etc.  i would
>NEVER consider using it for anything but supporting the mac port of
>gnat, and probably not then.
>
>so please don't dismiss my concerns as "emotional" they are based
>upon a very strongly held position that Microsoft is trying their
>best to destroy! Look at what they are trying to propagate with their
>new language c# as just the latest attempt!
>
>You are correct you are a volunteer and as such its more than fair
>for you to use whatever technology you want.   I was not questioning
>that right, only commenting on your statement that it wouldnt limit
>(and fragment) the ada world.  we are small enough without excluding
>segments of our population and calling them insignificant.
>
>jim
>
>
>
>At 12:51 AM -0400 7/6/00, Richard Conn wrote:
>>Hi, Jim,
>>
>>Your position sounds more emotional than logical for a number of reasons,
>>but that's not the issue, really.  The point really is that my move in
>>this direction will not stop anyone from collaborating if they wish,
>>and, as a volunteer, this move will put a pretty good supporting
>>infrastructure
>>under me that greatly reduces my overhead and workload while
simultaneously
>>increasing the level of collaboration that is possible.  I made an honest
>>attempt
>>to find a way to adapt this infrastructure while satisfying everyone,
>>including
>>the 5% that does not use Microsoft technology, and did not find a solution
>>in
>>a reasonable amount of time.
>>
>>If you can find an equivalent supporting infrastructure with the same
level
>>of functionality and ease of use that addresses the entire audience, I'm
>>interested
>>in hearing about it.  Good luck.
>>
>>Rick
>>====================================
>>Richard Conn, Principal Investigator
>>Reuse Tapestry
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: jim hopper [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 1:36 PM
>>To: Richard Conn; [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: R_Conn invites you to join ASE LIBRARY, an MSN Web
>>Community
>>
>>
>>At 4:53 PM -0400 7/5/00, Richard Conn wrote:
>>>Thanks for the update, Steve,
>>>
>>>It's looking more and more like users are at least at a partial
>  >disadvantage
>>>if
>>>they use Netscape.  In this weekend's experiments, we could not find any
>>way
>>>to
>>>use Netscape in the Community Chat Room (altho there is a Netscape add-in
>>>for
>>
>>
>>what else is new!
>>
>>>chat.msn.com, but that's not the same).  However, service was very
>reliable
>>>(probably partially due to a load drop over the July 4 holiday).  Some of
>>us
>>>had 3 hours worth of Chat Room time non-stop without interruption.
>>>
>>>Hopefully, being driven to Microsoft technologies for this site won't
>drive
>>>anyone away.  Besides, there is always direct contact, but the resources
>of
>>>the Community take a lot of the work of collaboration away.
>>
>>Sorry i don't see the point of having to change my whole way of doing
>>business on the internet just to be part of this.  not to mention if
>>you are on a unix box you have no choice but to use netscape.  so yes
>>at least for me (and 2 or 3 other people i know) this will keep us
>>from collaborating.  to me its not collaboration if i have to be
>>coorced into using the tools someone else prefers.  its your site and
>>you are perfectly free (and i am sure will) disregard this ;-)
>>
>>jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Thanks again,
>>>Rick
>>>====================================
>>>Richard Conn, Principal Investigator
>>>Reuse Tapestry
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Team Ada: Ada Advocacy Issues (83 & 95)
>>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Stephen Schwarm
>>>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 9:43 AM
>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>Subject: Re: R_Conn invites you to join ASE LIBRARY, an MSN Web
>>>Community
>>>
>>>
>>>Richard Conn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>    Hi, Jim,
>>>>
>>>>    What kind of problem led you to that conclusion?  I carefully
checked
>>out
>>>>    the
>>>>    site from a UNIX system running Netscape, and it worked fine.  I
know
>of
>>>at
>>>>    least
>>>>    one UNIX/Netscape user who has joined the community.
>>>>
>>>>    >From what I've been able to tell, you have to use Microsoft
>>technologies
>>>to
>>>>    MANAGE these communities, but you do not need them to JOIN and
>>>participate.
>>>>
>>>>    Rick
>>>>    ====================================
>>>>    Richard Conn, Principal Investigator
>>>>    Reuse Tapestry
>>>>
>>>>    -----Original Message-----
>>>>    From: Team Ada: Ada Advocacy Issues (83 & 95)
>>>>    [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of jim hopper
>>>>    Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 9:58 AM
>>>>    To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>    Subject: Re: R_Conn invites you to join ASE LIBRARY, an MSN Web
>>>>    Community
>>>>
>>>>    thanks for the invite, but either the url below is wrong or its as
>>>>    usual with MS windows only.
>>>>
>>>>    jim
>>>>
>>>>    At 6:18 AM -0700 7/1/00, User @ MSN Web Communities wrote:
>>>>    >R_Conn invites you to join the following MSN Web Community:
>>>>    >
>>>>    >ASE Library
>>>>    >Description: The Ada and Software Engineering (ASE) Library is a
>>>>    >free resource to the Software Development (all languages, but
>>>>    >particularly Ada) and Software Engineering communities. It contains
>>>>    >over 2G bytes of material.
>>>>    >
>>>>    >R_Conn wrote you this personal note:
>>>>    >
>>>>    >You are cordially invited to visit and/or join the ASE Library
>>>>    >Community on the Microsoft Network. You can keep up to date with
>>>>    >events, such as the next ASE CDROM distribution, and participate in
>>>>    >the collaboration.
>>>>    >
>>>>    >
>>>>    >
>>>>    >JOIN THIS COMMUNITY
>>>>    >Interested in becoming a member of this community? Click the link
>below
>>>to
>>>>    ><http://communities.msn.com/ASELibrary/join?iid=>Join Now
>>>>    >  http://communities.msn.com/ASELibrary/join?iid=
>>>>    >
>>>>    >COME BACK SOON
>>>>    >Once you have joined the community, you can get back to it at any
>>>>    >time by clicking the link below. We suggest you add this link to
>>>>    >your favorites.
>>>>    ><http://communities.msn.com/ASELibrary>ASE Library
>>>>    >  http://communities.msn.com/ASELibrary
>>>>    >
>>>>    >
>>>>    >MORE INFORMATION ABOUT COMMUNITIES
>>>>    >An MSN Web Community is a great place to share information, get
>>>>    >things done, and have fun online. Your family, friends, club,
>>>>    >organization -- any group you can think of -- can all enjoy the
>  >>   > >benefits of their own MSN Web Community.
>>>>    >
>>>>    >Learn more about MSN Web Communities or get help on how to join at
>our
>>>>    ><http://communities.msn.com/help>Help Page
>>>>    http://communities.msn.com/help
>>>>    >
>>>>    >
>>>>    >Get your private, free e-mail at
>>>>    ><http://www.hotmail.com>http://www.hotmail.com
>http://www.hotmail.com
>>>>    >
>>>>    >If you do not want to receive future e-mail from this MSN
community,
>>>>    >or if you received this message by mistake, please click the
>>>>    >"Remove" link below. On the pre-addressed e-mail message that
opens,
>>>>    >simply click "Send." Your e-mail address will be deleted from this
>>>>    >community's mailing list.
>>>>    ><mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>>>    >me from ASELibrary>Remove my e-mail address from ASE LIBRARY
>>>>
>>>>    --
>>>>    If you wish to strive for peace of soul then believe;
>>>>    if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire.
>>>>        -- Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>I had a little trouble with Netscape 4.7 on a Sun but I did get it to
>>>work.  I got a bunch of 404 errors but it would the find the page on the
>>   >next try.  I do have a fast connection so that my have something to do
>>>with it.  I'll have to try it from home.
>>>
>>>I probably doesn't work any better with IE :-)
>>>
>>>Steve
>>
>>--
>>If you wish to strive for peace of soul then believe;
>>if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire.
>>      -- Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>--
>If you wish to strive for peace of soul then believe;
>if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire.
>     -- Friedrich Nietzsche

--
If you wish to strive for peace of soul then believe;
if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire.
    -- Friedrich Nietzsche